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motorfirebox

Pittsburgh

Member Since 2004

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Monday Jan 31, 2011

Jan 31, 2011
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I was going to post this in the Egypt thread, but it's a bit off topic and maybe a bit too obvious for mass consumption:

The mistake (and it's one made by just about everyone, including me in the halcyon days of my youth) is to assume that the US and democracy are linked. This idea has been not only accepted without question by US leadership for many decades, it's been mass-marketed--I remember playing Splinter Cell and listening to some of the Chinese enemies complain that even if they hold out against the US militarily, they'll be defeated culturally by our cheeseburgers (by free market access to wealth, in other words).

I ate a cheeseburger a few days ago, and I don't recall my heart swelling with pride for my country as I bit into it. Though my arteries did swell a bit with cholesterol. The ability to forge your own political destiny does not, as would be obvious to everyone (and I'm certainly not pointing fingers, here, but it is a very widespread idea), equate to throwing one's lot in with the US.
VIEW 3 of 3 COMMENTS
idgas:
It's not cheeseburgers but jeans, soft toilet paper and other consumer goods but those only work for closed economies like for the former Eastern Block.

Islam has been a driving force behind governmental changes in the M.E. because the mosques are the only places where people can get together and communicate (relatively) freely. The Muslim Brotherhood is the classic example of a group rising through the Mosques. While the M.B. has renounced violence (circa mid-1960s) and become more secular - they were never fundamentalist as we see today - more radical members have left to create (Egypt's) Islamic Jihad who members went on to become leaders of al-Qaeda see al-Zawahiri....

I needed to get that ^^^ out I am avoiding the CE thread the "stupid level" is in the red zone.

Go have a veggie burger and tofu bacon and live longer. tonguetonguetonguetongue
Feb 1, 2011
chris_sick:
Here's a fun piece form the Jerusalem Post. I didn't originally realize where it was from, so I couldn't figure out how this woman came around to the remarkable conclusion that the US would be better openly advocating for a despotic & tyrannical regime against a democratic uprising. I dunno when it was written, but she definitely seems behind the times thinking that there's a path for Mubarak to retain power. It seems to me like once the military refused to fire on the protesters, it was really just a matter of when/how power is going to transition as opposed to if.

But her characterization is interesting. My gut impulse is to chalk people like this off as extreme rightwing/anti-Muslim, & incapable of viewing any broadly supported Muslim movement as anything but extremist (& there's some value in that, once I looked at her other articles & saw her piece on the so-called Ground Zero Mosque). But I can't say. I don't know enough about Egypt, or the particular branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, or about the youth leading this movement to say if they're likely to wind up establishing an extremist Islamic theocracy or not. I know that-- at a very base & simplistic level-- the US can't afford to keep its middle eastern policy limited to the two extremely narrow goals of protecting oil interests/keeping gas cheap, & backing Israel, & that a lot of the late 20th & early 21st century political shifts we've seen are steeping in the cynical realpolitik of the Cold War. We can't possibly continue to back Mubarak against a popular uprising because to not do so would radically alter the status quo. The status quo is altered, & with the widespread nature of these protests it seems like both smart policy & the morally correct thing to do to back democratic reforms, & is likely the only way to stem the ever-increasing anti-Western feelings among these popular movements. Basically, how awesome would it be if we stopped being every one's least favorite abusive father figure & worked with/assisted these fledgling democracies that ever reason to be hostile to us, & finally live up to this-- as you point, rather foolish-- notion that the US is an advocate for democracy & naturally friendly with any people engaged in self-determination. I feel like we could avoid creating a lot more problems for ourselves if we transformed that idea from a marketing strategy to an actually guide for policy.

But I'm rambling, mostly thinking out loud, & probably just overstating conversations we've already had. What I really came here to say was:

Dude.

Eight year olds know where it's at.
Feb 1, 2011

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