Multi-instrumentalist studio wizard Jim O'Rourke is the newest member of NYC's avant-garde legends, Sonic Youth, but that's merely added a new chapter to his War and Peace-size resume. An accomplished artist in his own right, having written the soundtracks to the films Love Lisa and the upcoming An Injury To One, as well as a multitude of albums in his own name. O'Rourke mixed Wilco's classic Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, in addition to working with Jeff Tweedy's side-project, Loose Fur. I've merely listed the most recognizable names here, but for a good (long) evening's read -- check out his discography. Somewhere in the midst of all this work, and shows with Sonic Youth, Jim found time to answer a few questions via email:
Keith Daniels:You began working with Sonic Youth on Goodbye 20th Century and NYC Ghosts & Flowers. How did that come about?
Jim O'Rourke: Well, it was [actually] a bit earlier than that. I'd known Lee [Ranaldo] since the early 90's, and I would run into him and Thurston a fair amount as they became more involved in improvised music circles in the early '90's, which I was involved with a lot at the time. They both were big supporters and would come out and see me play, which I appreciated. The move to playing with the group happened when Thurston and I were both playing with the Merce Cunningham Company in '96 or '97, sorry can't remember, and we dropped by the studio on the way to work. Lee suggested we all play, and that became SYR3. Around the same time I began doing some mixing/engineering for some of Kim and Thurston's side projects, I was coming to New York more often, and generally, they just kept involving me in more and more projects until I was just sort of there all the time...
KD:What was your reaction when they asked you to become a full-time member for Murray Street?
JO: Well, in all honesty I try not to think about it. It wasn't like they formally asked me or anything. That actually would have freaked me out a bit. It's not really the way I work. I just see the work at hand, and get to it.
KD:You're a good deal younger than the rest of the band. Do they ever tease you about that?
JO: Not too much.. I'm a bit older than people think. For a lot of people I know they've only become aware of me since '97 or so, but I've been making records since the 80's. In fact Thurston has told me that early on, when he was buying my first records, he thought I was some tweed coat wearing professor or something. Except for a few occasions, I've always worked with people older than me. The only real jokes spring from my early dismissal of Sonic Youth because they weren't noisy enough for me, heh. When I first heard Confusion is Sex, I thought, "That's not noisy!", but I was a hard core improv/noise guy then. I wanted Whitehouse and Amm 24 hrs a day.
KD:Even with all your accomplishments on your own, do you ever sit back and say to yourself "Jesus, I'm in Sonic Youth!"?
JO: No, not really, because I work with people because I like working with those people. I don't think much of the rest of the baggage. If anything, I try to keep out of that, because it is their history, and I want to respect that, so I make a real effort to not connect myself with Sonic Youth pre-'97 at all.
KD:What do you feel you bring to a band that you work with?
JO: Well, in the case of Sonic Youth, it would simply be "me". They are truly a band that works/sounds the way they do because of the different personalities. Many groups have a strong visionary leader, and others support and enhance, but it does have a nexus. Sonic Youth is definitely a collective.
KD:What was your formal background in music theory?
JO: Urgh. I did go to college, but I want to stress I don't believe that it is the way to go, at all. I was the first person in my family to go to college, so I had to finish to make my parents happy, but I learned much more outside the classroom than in.
KD:Do you feel that helped or influenced the way you make music now?
JO: Well, definitely studying music helps, regardless of what people say. If you are "influenced" by it, well I think that's still your own fault, not the school's. You have to have a strong identity to make sure you learn from it, but let that be a view of the possibilities, not "the way". I'm glad I studied, I still [study], but it's just so I can get better, even if that is learning that I've been wrong, it's all good.
KD: The history of serious music in the 20th century has been marked by debate over what constitutes beauty, and the role of ugliness in art. What does beautiful music mean to you? Why is ugliness sometimes useful in music?
JO: Well, to me Merzbow is totally beautiful.
KD:Sonic Youth is a band that has sometimes been called "pretentious".
What do you think critics mean when they say that?
JO: Well, usually they have no idea what the word means. It's generally used wrong, so it doesn't really matter what they "think".
KD:You worked with Wilco on their album Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. What was that whole experience like? Did it change, or merely confirm, your opinion of the music industry?
JO: It was an odd occurence, since the first Loose Fur record was already finished when Jeff asked me to mix YHF. I think it was watching me mix that made him think of asking me. So I went into it in a sort of detached way, which is what he wanted, to hear the results without being so emotionally connected to all the recording and such, see it unbiased. As to what happened to the record in re: Warners, well that was no surprise really. It's typical of how the industry works; people are generally only at a label for a year or so, they're all basically spending all their time looking for the next move up, watching their ass. It's definitely not conducive to good music being released, very few people I've met in the "industry" are what I would call music fans. Then again a lot of people I've met in the "indie"world aren't what I would call music fans either. Heh. I'm hard to please.
KD:There's a sense that the Loose Fur project was a way to work on new ideas outside of the high expectations for Wilco's next album. Do you feel that is an accurate assessment?
JO: Well, we didn't really reference the Wilco album at all, and Glenn was not yet in Wilco, so for Jeff I'm sure it was a way to see things a different way. For Glenn and myself, it was exciting to work with someone else, and probably fun for Glenn to not have to have hear me tell him what parts to play, heh heh. So, for Glenn and myself, Wilco didn't really come into it at all.
KD:Have you gone on a major tour yet with Sonic Youth? Are you
nervous about playing for huge crowds?
JO: [I've been on tour with Sonic Youth] since '99 or so. As long as I'm not the center of attention, I have no problems. Doing my own shows however is another question entirely. I haven't done a "band" show in a few years, and I doubt I'll do it
again.
KD:Listening to almost any Sonic Youth record, one gets the feeling that there is both a lot of thought put into it before-hand, and that spontaneity played a large role. Has it been interesting to you to see how a band that has so much history goes about making
music?
JO: Well, the sense of history is just something I try to respect, and know where my place is, meaning I stay out of it! Heh heh. Unlike other group situations I'd been in before, where there is a strong center force (like in Red Krayola), Sonic Youth [is] an interesting hybrid for me, since it works like a group improv meeting. It just wouldn't be what it was if it wasn't those people together. Someone may come in with the basic song, but what it is after the four of them go at it doesn't really resemble the original idea, which is terrific. So it was interesting to have this group dynamic on a different time scale, as opposed to "For one hour we will make music together." It was like continuous revision of that hour, know what i mean? It's hip.
KD:What have you been working on today?
JO: At the moment, I'm mostly doing some remastering stuff for friends: a new Rob Mazurek record, a bunch of stuff for Loren Mazzacane Connors. I spend a few hours a day working on my record, which is just writing at the moment, since it's gonna have about 100 people playing on it, so have to score it all out, gonna take forever. And watch a few movies, a daily need. And listening to Cockney Rebel's Psychomodo album again and again.
KD:Would you consider yourself a workaholic?
JO: Nah, workaholics work to avoid something. I love to work.
KD:A lot of musicians say that there was one particular record that they heard when they were young that was like an epiphany for them, and made them want to play music. What was it that did it for you?
JO: It'd be a few, hard to pin it down. Early early on, it would definitely be Mothers of Invention Uncle Meat, John Coltrane's Live at the Village Vanguard Again (because of Pharoah Sanders solo on "Naima" -- I distinctly remembering my friends think I was nutso for liking this track), and [Paul] McCartney's first solo album. Definitely Goddard's Weekend, Roeg/Camel's Performance, and Downey Sr.'s Greasers Palace (I was very very lucky that there was a channel in Chicago that played all these films). In high school I got heavily into minimalism, although the free jazz and avant garde stuff were still bubbling under, then I got obsessed with that stuff in college. If I had to pick an album that really encapsulated it all for me though, it'd be Van Dyke Park's Song Cycle. I've still never heard anything as good.
KD:Are you involved in any of Sonic Youth's humanitarian interests, for example Free Tibet?
JO: Well, I have been since I've been involved, it's generally a group effort.
KD:What record in your collection would surprise someone who was a fan of your music the most?
JO: Hmmmm...Boney M, well, I guess that wouldn't be too much of a surprise. I really like the first two songs on Jordan Knight's solo album, they're completely brilliant. the first song might as well be from Spark's Indiscreet. The rest of the album kinda blows.
KD:What's next on your agenda?
JO: Work on my churlish figure.
Keith Daniels:You began working with Sonic Youth on Goodbye 20th Century and NYC Ghosts & Flowers. How did that come about?
Jim O'Rourke: Well, it was [actually] a bit earlier than that. I'd known Lee [Ranaldo] since the early 90's, and I would run into him and Thurston a fair amount as they became more involved in improvised music circles in the early '90's, which I was involved with a lot at the time. They both were big supporters and would come out and see me play, which I appreciated. The move to playing with the group happened when Thurston and I were both playing with the Merce Cunningham Company in '96 or '97, sorry can't remember, and we dropped by the studio on the way to work. Lee suggested we all play, and that became SYR3. Around the same time I began doing some mixing/engineering for some of Kim and Thurston's side projects, I was coming to New York more often, and generally, they just kept involving me in more and more projects until I was just sort of there all the time...
KD:What was your reaction when they asked you to become a full-time member for Murray Street?
JO: Well, in all honesty I try not to think about it. It wasn't like they formally asked me or anything. That actually would have freaked me out a bit. It's not really the way I work. I just see the work at hand, and get to it.
KD:You're a good deal younger than the rest of the band. Do they ever tease you about that?
JO: Not too much.. I'm a bit older than people think. For a lot of people I know they've only become aware of me since '97 or so, but I've been making records since the 80's. In fact Thurston has told me that early on, when he was buying my first records, he thought I was some tweed coat wearing professor or something. Except for a few occasions, I've always worked with people older than me. The only real jokes spring from my early dismissal of Sonic Youth because they weren't noisy enough for me, heh. When I first heard Confusion is Sex, I thought, "That's not noisy!", but I was a hard core improv/noise guy then. I wanted Whitehouse and Amm 24 hrs a day.
KD:Even with all your accomplishments on your own, do you ever sit back and say to yourself "Jesus, I'm in Sonic Youth!"?
JO: No, not really, because I work with people because I like working with those people. I don't think much of the rest of the baggage. If anything, I try to keep out of that, because it is their history, and I want to respect that, so I make a real effort to not connect myself with Sonic Youth pre-'97 at all.
KD:What do you feel you bring to a band that you work with?
JO: Well, in the case of Sonic Youth, it would simply be "me". They are truly a band that works/sounds the way they do because of the different personalities. Many groups have a strong visionary leader, and others support and enhance, but it does have a nexus. Sonic Youth is definitely a collective.
KD:What was your formal background in music theory?
JO: Urgh. I did go to college, but I want to stress I don't believe that it is the way to go, at all. I was the first person in my family to go to college, so I had to finish to make my parents happy, but I learned much more outside the classroom than in.
KD:Do you feel that helped or influenced the way you make music now?
JO: Well, definitely studying music helps, regardless of what people say. If you are "influenced" by it, well I think that's still your own fault, not the school's. You have to have a strong identity to make sure you learn from it, but let that be a view of the possibilities, not "the way". I'm glad I studied, I still [study], but it's just so I can get better, even if that is learning that I've been wrong, it's all good.
KD: The history of serious music in the 20th century has been marked by debate over what constitutes beauty, and the role of ugliness in art. What does beautiful music mean to you? Why is ugliness sometimes useful in music?
JO: Well, to me Merzbow is totally beautiful.
KD:Sonic Youth is a band that has sometimes been called "pretentious".
What do you think critics mean when they say that?
JO: Well, usually they have no idea what the word means. It's generally used wrong, so it doesn't really matter what they "think".
KD:You worked with Wilco on their album Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. What was that whole experience like? Did it change, or merely confirm, your opinion of the music industry?
JO: It was an odd occurence, since the first Loose Fur record was already finished when Jeff asked me to mix YHF. I think it was watching me mix that made him think of asking me. So I went into it in a sort of detached way, which is what he wanted, to hear the results without being so emotionally connected to all the recording and such, see it unbiased. As to what happened to the record in re: Warners, well that was no surprise really. It's typical of how the industry works; people are generally only at a label for a year or so, they're all basically spending all their time looking for the next move up, watching their ass. It's definitely not conducive to good music being released, very few people I've met in the "industry" are what I would call music fans. Then again a lot of people I've met in the "indie"world aren't what I would call music fans either. Heh. I'm hard to please.
KD:There's a sense that the Loose Fur project was a way to work on new ideas outside of the high expectations for Wilco's next album. Do you feel that is an accurate assessment?
JO: Well, we didn't really reference the Wilco album at all, and Glenn was not yet in Wilco, so for Jeff I'm sure it was a way to see things a different way. For Glenn and myself, it was exciting to work with someone else, and probably fun for Glenn to not have to have hear me tell him what parts to play, heh heh. So, for Glenn and myself, Wilco didn't really come into it at all.
KD:Have you gone on a major tour yet with Sonic Youth? Are you
nervous about playing for huge crowds?
JO: [I've been on tour with Sonic Youth] since '99 or so. As long as I'm not the center of attention, I have no problems. Doing my own shows however is another question entirely. I haven't done a "band" show in a few years, and I doubt I'll do it
again.
KD:Listening to almost any Sonic Youth record, one gets the feeling that there is both a lot of thought put into it before-hand, and that spontaneity played a large role. Has it been interesting to you to see how a band that has so much history goes about making
music?
JO: Well, the sense of history is just something I try to respect, and know where my place is, meaning I stay out of it! Heh heh. Unlike other group situations I'd been in before, where there is a strong center force (like in Red Krayola), Sonic Youth [is] an interesting hybrid for me, since it works like a group improv meeting. It just wouldn't be what it was if it wasn't those people together. Someone may come in with the basic song, but what it is after the four of them go at it doesn't really resemble the original idea, which is terrific. So it was interesting to have this group dynamic on a different time scale, as opposed to "For one hour we will make music together." It was like continuous revision of that hour, know what i mean? It's hip.
KD:What have you been working on today?
JO: At the moment, I'm mostly doing some remastering stuff for friends: a new Rob Mazurek record, a bunch of stuff for Loren Mazzacane Connors. I spend a few hours a day working on my record, which is just writing at the moment, since it's gonna have about 100 people playing on it, so have to score it all out, gonna take forever. And watch a few movies, a daily need. And listening to Cockney Rebel's Psychomodo album again and again.
KD:Would you consider yourself a workaholic?
JO: Nah, workaholics work to avoid something. I love to work.
KD:A lot of musicians say that there was one particular record that they heard when they were young that was like an epiphany for them, and made them want to play music. What was it that did it for you?
JO: It'd be a few, hard to pin it down. Early early on, it would definitely be Mothers of Invention Uncle Meat, John Coltrane's Live at the Village Vanguard Again (because of Pharoah Sanders solo on "Naima" -- I distinctly remembering my friends think I was nutso for liking this track), and [Paul] McCartney's first solo album. Definitely Goddard's Weekend, Roeg/Camel's Performance, and Downey Sr.'s Greasers Palace (I was very very lucky that there was a channel in Chicago that played all these films). In high school I got heavily into minimalism, although the free jazz and avant garde stuff were still bubbling under, then I got obsessed with that stuff in college. If I had to pick an album that really encapsulated it all for me though, it'd be Van Dyke Park's Song Cycle. I've still never heard anything as good.
KD:Are you involved in any of Sonic Youth's humanitarian interests, for example Free Tibet?
JO: Well, I have been since I've been involved, it's generally a group effort.
KD:What record in your collection would surprise someone who was a fan of your music the most?
JO: Hmmmm...Boney M, well, I guess that wouldn't be too much of a surprise. I really like the first two songs on Jordan Knight's solo album, they're completely brilliant. the first song might as well be from Spark's Indiscreet. The rest of the album kinda blows.
KD:What's next on your agenda?
JO: Work on my churlish figure.
VIEW 7 of 7 COMMENTS
ayin:
"Jim O'rouke from Sonic Youth?"-Interesting concept for an article, given the underground reputations of both of them. You did a good job going into depth on his relationship to the band, though, I must say.
flyingsquirrel:
Thanks Keith, that was a great interview. I think O'Rourke's one of the most interesting guys in contemporary music, though I know he can be evasive with interview questions. He was fairly forthcoming this time, which is nice. I especially liked reading about his early influences. I found it funny that he was "into minimalism" in high school. In high school I was into Rush. Lots of Rush.