John Cameron Mitchell came to national attention with the film adaptation of his famous Off Broadway play, Hedwig and the Angry Inch. The movie, which he wrote, directed and starred in has become a cult hit. With his limited power Mitchell has produced his first project that didnt have him as the main creative force. That film is Jonathan Caouettes Tarnation. Tarnation is as fiercely personal a self-portrait as can be recalled. Having documented his life since the age of eleven, Jonathan Caouette weaves a psychedelic whirlwind of snapshots, Super-8 movies, answering machine messages, video diaries, early short films, snippets of '80s pop culture and dramatic reenactments to create an epic portrait of an American family torn apart by dysfunction and reunited through the power of love.
I got a chance to talk with John Cameron Mitchell about his work with Jonathan Caouette, the Scissor Sisters video he directed and his next feature film Shortbus.
Check out the official website for Tarnation
Daniel Robert Epstein: Hey John, what are you up?
John Cameron Mitchell: Im in the middle of editing the Scissor Sisters video I directed.
DRE: How did that come to you?
JCM: I know Jason the singer and theyve asked me to do all their other videos but this is the first time I was free.
DRE: What was your idea for it?
JCM: Its for the song Filthy/Gorgeous which is about hookers mostly. So its set in a whorehouse.
DRE: Is the band in the story part of the video?
JCM: Yes Ana is the madam, one of the band members is a john and the rest of the band is hookers. They all did great.
DRE: Have you directed many videos?
JCM: No this is my first one.
DRE: How did you approach it?
JCM: I approached it like a movie. Its very Hedwig in a way because we used the same cinematographer, makeup and hair people. We shot it on 16mm so it looks very 70s. Its got a little narrative and there are performances. We followed this nude tranny hooker, who is a performer who does this great hula hoop act. So that gave it this theatre element. A lot of people from the downtown queer club scene were in it. We went to Club Edelweiss which is a tranny/hooker bar and got some girls. Its going to look very real.
DRE: When do you think its going to be done?
JCM: Probably it will be out in November in Britain and on the Scissor Sisters website. Im not sure if it will play on TV in America. We will probably have a dirtier cut on the internet because it is risqu and we will probably have a fight with the label.
DRE: They knew who they were hiring, didnt they?
JCM: Yes they did goddamn it.
DRE: How did you get involved with Tarnation?
JCM: Jonathan auditioned for my film Shortbus which is the one thats sexually oriented. He sent in an audition tape with parts of Tarnation on it and it was quite stunning. I kept up with him and encouraged him to keep working on it and he submitted it to the MIX Festival which is headed by a friend of mine named Stephen Winter. I alerted Stephen about the movie, then he became a producer and they brought me on as executive producer to help edit, advise and godfather it. Then I brought in Gus Van Sant as producer.
DRE: Did you watch all the footage he had?
JCM: I only watched a two and a half hour cut of it. But we really wanted to get it down to an hour and a half. So we discussed structure and I suggested a different ending which he had to shoot. It was really just being a dramaturge for a play.
DRE: What struck you about Tarnation?
JCM: Its absolutely honest without being self indulgent. Its a true memoir rather than just a diary. Reading someones diary might be interesting if you know them but not as much if you dont. A memoir is something that is more crafted and hopefully useful to other people. So many people have been moved to find some kind of catharsis in their own life but also moved to create. Creation was his salvation and he really truly was saved by making this film.
When Jonathan was 12 he was in the Big Brother program because he was a fucked up kid and smashing things. His big brother was the Houston Chronicle film critic and instead of playing baseball they went to art movies. The critic came to Sundance, saw the movie and was so moved that he came up to me and said that he thought this kid was going to end up dead in the gutter or do something extraordinary and hes done the latter. The other thing that struck me in a purely aesthetic way is that to me its the first great film that is a true outsider film. Its the first outsider film that has reached out to a mainstream audience in the way that Daniel Johnston makes music or how Henry Darger makes his visual art. They werent in any system or network but they just did it on their own completely without being in touch with anything you think of as the scene, culture or school.
DRE: Did you end up casting him in Shortbus?
JCM: He wasnt really right for anything in my movie but he is going to have a cameo. I do want to work with him again because hes a really good actor.
DRE: Did Tarnation make you look at your work any differently?
JCM: It didnt so much in form because no one is going to make a film quite like Tarnation because there arent too many people who have taped themselves in that way for so long. The idea of a diary or an autobiography is something that I think people will warm to. I think it will spark a lot of homemade films in an autobiographical way. The reason the movie was so cheap was because he was using footage that he had shot all along rather than have a film shoot. But I think the price tag reminds people that its within reach financially to make a film your own way. I think it will have an influence that a really good rock record like the first Velvet Underground had i.e. not that many people bought it but those that did started a band.
DRE: Do you see a lot of films?
JCM: Im a film buff so I see a lot of movies. I dont see many Hollywood movies because they seem to get worse and worse. I often have to be forced to see a major studio film. The art wing of the Hollywood studios still put out good films like Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind.
DRE: What else have you seen lately that you liked?
JCM: Ive seen some old movies lately but Ive been really busy. I saw the Ramones documentary and loved it. What I hear is great is Sideways.
DRE: Are you going to be producing anymore movies?
JCM: I am going to be producing Shortbus but Tarnation was a bit of a fluke. I loved being a helper and if something comes along that blows me away I will continue to try to get it out there. Tarnation really moved me and really needed help. After Sundance, even though people loved it, no one was touching us as far as distribution. I couldnt understand why because people are going to be talking about it. Just from a purely mercenary side its a great story for journalists. But they dont trust that anymore, even indie distributors want tried and true stuff. Wellspring is the only one that stepped and they are the most adventurous distributors of art films today. Whatever you think of The Brown Bunny, they did put it out. Thats the kind of company I want to keep working with because they are just wonderful.
DRE: What stage are you at with Shortbus?
JCM: We have about 40 percent of our budget. We have to finalize certain things before we go to private investors for the rest.
DRE: Was the New York Times correct in stating that you want a two million dollar budget?
JCM: It looks like its going to be cheaper. Its definitely under $2 million but I think were thinking in the $1.3 million range now.
DRE: How much did Hedwig cost?
JCM: When all was said and done, about $6 million. So this is a lot cheaper and if I was an investor I would totally invest in it.
DRE: I talked to John Sayles and he still has trouble raising money.
JCM: Its crazy. But well find it somehow and it will probably be a lot of wining and dining rich people. I have no problem selling it to people. I dont get discouraged because I know it will happen and it will be great then those people that didnt participate will be sorry. Thats what happened with Hedwig, some of the people who said no to Hedwig have been big enough to admit they made a mistake.
DRE: Do you literally have to wine and dine people?
JCM: Eventually [laughs]. If there are private citizens investing sometimes they want a little special attention. I understand, its their money so they want to hang out.
DRE: Do you plan to appear in Shortbus?
JCM: No Im not really interested in directing myself anymore because there are just too many things to do. Weve been working with the actors for a year and a half off and on. Were getting comfortable and working on the script which we will continue to do up until shooting.
DRE: Is there improv done in front of the camera?
JCM: Yes there is some but its very structured. They can say whatever they want but they have to say it in a certain order.
DRE: Are you getting any known actors?
JCM: We kind of avoided that because we knew it would be a nightmare. Known actors dont want to have sex on camera. There were a couple of people who were former sitcom child stars who were interested because they really wanted to bust out. But there was no perfect place for them. Everyone is virtually unknown.
DRE: Why is it called Shortbus?
JCM: The characters converge on kind of a modern day salon, in the Gertrude Stein tradition, called Shortbus in Brooklyn. Its a salon for the challenged and gifted i.e. the short school buses.
DRE: Is the real sex in the movie integral to the story?
JCM: Yes there is nothing gratuitous to it. All the sexual scenes are necessary to tell the story. When films dont show sex they have metaphors for it. In our case we can show the sex and that will be the metaphors for other things in their lives. If someone is masturbating and tries to get his dick in his mouth it becomes a metaphor for him trying to be alone in life and not procreate with someone else. Its not necessarily to be erotic though there may be erotic byproduct to it however the purpose isnt to get the audience all hot and bothered. Its really to go places they havent been emotionally and even intellectually. People keep telling me that if I show everything its not hot but Im not trying to be hot, sex has other levels. Sometimes sex is sad and sometimes its hysterically funny. We forget that when we see only porn and only European art films which tend to be very grim.
DRE: What kind of porn do you like?
JCM: Im not so much into video anymore. I used to watch video but erotically Im more turned on by images because there is more imagination involved but Im definitely not as much into porn as I was when I was younger.
DRE: I saw you sing at The Losers Lounge tribute to David Bowie. Have you met Bowie yet?
JCM: Very briefly. He was an investor in the Hedwig production in LA.
DRE: Did you get to wine and dine him at all?
JCM: I didnt but he was very sweet.
DRE: How did the wedROCK benefit go?
JCM: It went great. It was a smash sellout. I sang with Le Tigre, Margaret Cho and Bob Mould. We did a second wedROCK with Henry Rollins, Bob Mould and Sandra Bernhard.
DRE: Would you get married?
JCM: I would under the right circumstances but its a hard thing to say. I cant really decide it until there is a person.
DRE: Some people do.
JCM: They have a dream. But to me its only going to work if someone else wants to. Marriage isnt in my agenda right now but someone telling me Im subhuman is in my agenda to resist. Fuck you hands off. Youre supposed to be Republican and supposed to want government out of your lives and theyre just hypocrites. A lot of people are being political right now and Im just so freaked out so Im just going to go to Ohio next week and work through the election. There is a group in Ohio working on the youth vote so they are having parties every weekend to mobilize so I might DJ or sing there.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
I got a chance to talk with John Cameron Mitchell about his work with Jonathan Caouette, the Scissor Sisters video he directed and his next feature film Shortbus.
Check out the official website for Tarnation
Daniel Robert Epstein: Hey John, what are you up?
John Cameron Mitchell: Im in the middle of editing the Scissor Sisters video I directed.
DRE: How did that come to you?
JCM: I know Jason the singer and theyve asked me to do all their other videos but this is the first time I was free.
DRE: What was your idea for it?
JCM: Its for the song Filthy/Gorgeous which is about hookers mostly. So its set in a whorehouse.
DRE: Is the band in the story part of the video?
JCM: Yes Ana is the madam, one of the band members is a john and the rest of the band is hookers. They all did great.
DRE: Have you directed many videos?
JCM: No this is my first one.
DRE: How did you approach it?
JCM: I approached it like a movie. Its very Hedwig in a way because we used the same cinematographer, makeup and hair people. We shot it on 16mm so it looks very 70s. Its got a little narrative and there are performances. We followed this nude tranny hooker, who is a performer who does this great hula hoop act. So that gave it this theatre element. A lot of people from the downtown queer club scene were in it. We went to Club Edelweiss which is a tranny/hooker bar and got some girls. Its going to look very real.
DRE: When do you think its going to be done?
JCM: Probably it will be out in November in Britain and on the Scissor Sisters website. Im not sure if it will play on TV in America. We will probably have a dirtier cut on the internet because it is risqu and we will probably have a fight with the label.
DRE: They knew who they were hiring, didnt they?
JCM: Yes they did goddamn it.
DRE: How did you get involved with Tarnation?
JCM: Jonathan auditioned for my film Shortbus which is the one thats sexually oriented. He sent in an audition tape with parts of Tarnation on it and it was quite stunning. I kept up with him and encouraged him to keep working on it and he submitted it to the MIX Festival which is headed by a friend of mine named Stephen Winter. I alerted Stephen about the movie, then he became a producer and they brought me on as executive producer to help edit, advise and godfather it. Then I brought in Gus Van Sant as producer.
DRE: Did you watch all the footage he had?
JCM: I only watched a two and a half hour cut of it. But we really wanted to get it down to an hour and a half. So we discussed structure and I suggested a different ending which he had to shoot. It was really just being a dramaturge for a play.
DRE: What struck you about Tarnation?
JCM: Its absolutely honest without being self indulgent. Its a true memoir rather than just a diary. Reading someones diary might be interesting if you know them but not as much if you dont. A memoir is something that is more crafted and hopefully useful to other people. So many people have been moved to find some kind of catharsis in their own life but also moved to create. Creation was his salvation and he really truly was saved by making this film.
When Jonathan was 12 he was in the Big Brother program because he was a fucked up kid and smashing things. His big brother was the Houston Chronicle film critic and instead of playing baseball they went to art movies. The critic came to Sundance, saw the movie and was so moved that he came up to me and said that he thought this kid was going to end up dead in the gutter or do something extraordinary and hes done the latter. The other thing that struck me in a purely aesthetic way is that to me its the first great film that is a true outsider film. Its the first outsider film that has reached out to a mainstream audience in the way that Daniel Johnston makes music or how Henry Darger makes his visual art. They werent in any system or network but they just did it on their own completely without being in touch with anything you think of as the scene, culture or school.
DRE: Did you end up casting him in Shortbus?
JCM: He wasnt really right for anything in my movie but he is going to have a cameo. I do want to work with him again because hes a really good actor.
DRE: Did Tarnation make you look at your work any differently?
JCM: It didnt so much in form because no one is going to make a film quite like Tarnation because there arent too many people who have taped themselves in that way for so long. The idea of a diary or an autobiography is something that I think people will warm to. I think it will spark a lot of homemade films in an autobiographical way. The reason the movie was so cheap was because he was using footage that he had shot all along rather than have a film shoot. But I think the price tag reminds people that its within reach financially to make a film your own way. I think it will have an influence that a really good rock record like the first Velvet Underground had i.e. not that many people bought it but those that did started a band.
DRE: Do you see a lot of films?
JCM: Im a film buff so I see a lot of movies. I dont see many Hollywood movies because they seem to get worse and worse. I often have to be forced to see a major studio film. The art wing of the Hollywood studios still put out good films like Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind.
DRE: What else have you seen lately that you liked?
JCM: Ive seen some old movies lately but Ive been really busy. I saw the Ramones documentary and loved it. What I hear is great is Sideways.
DRE: Are you going to be producing anymore movies?
JCM: I am going to be producing Shortbus but Tarnation was a bit of a fluke. I loved being a helper and if something comes along that blows me away I will continue to try to get it out there. Tarnation really moved me and really needed help. After Sundance, even though people loved it, no one was touching us as far as distribution. I couldnt understand why because people are going to be talking about it. Just from a purely mercenary side its a great story for journalists. But they dont trust that anymore, even indie distributors want tried and true stuff. Wellspring is the only one that stepped and they are the most adventurous distributors of art films today. Whatever you think of The Brown Bunny, they did put it out. Thats the kind of company I want to keep working with because they are just wonderful.
DRE: What stage are you at with Shortbus?
JCM: We have about 40 percent of our budget. We have to finalize certain things before we go to private investors for the rest.
DRE: Was the New York Times correct in stating that you want a two million dollar budget?
JCM: It looks like its going to be cheaper. Its definitely under $2 million but I think were thinking in the $1.3 million range now.
DRE: How much did Hedwig cost?
JCM: When all was said and done, about $6 million. So this is a lot cheaper and if I was an investor I would totally invest in it.
DRE: I talked to John Sayles and he still has trouble raising money.
JCM: Its crazy. But well find it somehow and it will probably be a lot of wining and dining rich people. I have no problem selling it to people. I dont get discouraged because I know it will happen and it will be great then those people that didnt participate will be sorry. Thats what happened with Hedwig, some of the people who said no to Hedwig have been big enough to admit they made a mistake.
DRE: Do you literally have to wine and dine people?
JCM: Eventually [laughs]. If there are private citizens investing sometimes they want a little special attention. I understand, its their money so they want to hang out.
DRE: Do you plan to appear in Shortbus?
JCM: No Im not really interested in directing myself anymore because there are just too many things to do. Weve been working with the actors for a year and a half off and on. Were getting comfortable and working on the script which we will continue to do up until shooting.
DRE: Is there improv done in front of the camera?
JCM: Yes there is some but its very structured. They can say whatever they want but they have to say it in a certain order.
DRE: Are you getting any known actors?
JCM: We kind of avoided that because we knew it would be a nightmare. Known actors dont want to have sex on camera. There were a couple of people who were former sitcom child stars who were interested because they really wanted to bust out. But there was no perfect place for them. Everyone is virtually unknown.
DRE: Why is it called Shortbus?
JCM: The characters converge on kind of a modern day salon, in the Gertrude Stein tradition, called Shortbus in Brooklyn. Its a salon for the challenged and gifted i.e. the short school buses.
DRE: Is the real sex in the movie integral to the story?
JCM: Yes there is nothing gratuitous to it. All the sexual scenes are necessary to tell the story. When films dont show sex they have metaphors for it. In our case we can show the sex and that will be the metaphors for other things in their lives. If someone is masturbating and tries to get his dick in his mouth it becomes a metaphor for him trying to be alone in life and not procreate with someone else. Its not necessarily to be erotic though there may be erotic byproduct to it however the purpose isnt to get the audience all hot and bothered. Its really to go places they havent been emotionally and even intellectually. People keep telling me that if I show everything its not hot but Im not trying to be hot, sex has other levels. Sometimes sex is sad and sometimes its hysterically funny. We forget that when we see only porn and only European art films which tend to be very grim.
DRE: What kind of porn do you like?
JCM: Im not so much into video anymore. I used to watch video but erotically Im more turned on by images because there is more imagination involved but Im definitely not as much into porn as I was when I was younger.
DRE: I saw you sing at The Losers Lounge tribute to David Bowie. Have you met Bowie yet?
JCM: Very briefly. He was an investor in the Hedwig production in LA.
DRE: Did you get to wine and dine him at all?
JCM: I didnt but he was very sweet.
DRE: How did the wedROCK benefit go?
JCM: It went great. It was a smash sellout. I sang with Le Tigre, Margaret Cho and Bob Mould. We did a second wedROCK with Henry Rollins, Bob Mould and Sandra Bernhard.
DRE: Would you get married?
JCM: I would under the right circumstances but its a hard thing to say. I cant really decide it until there is a person.
DRE: Some people do.
JCM: They have a dream. But to me its only going to work if someone else wants to. Marriage isnt in my agenda right now but someone telling me Im subhuman is in my agenda to resist. Fuck you hands off. Youre supposed to be Republican and supposed to want government out of your lives and theyre just hypocrites. A lot of people are being political right now and Im just so freaked out so Im just going to go to Ohio next week and work through the election. There is a group in Ohio working on the youth vote so they are having parties every weekend to mobilize so I might DJ or sing there.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
VIEW 7 of 7 COMMENTS
takeshi21:
Yes, fantastic subject for an interview. And nice to hear about Mitchell's current projects, too.
topaz:
Weeee! This interview makes me so happy I can hardly stand it. Not only the existence of the interview but the fact that it's a damn good one. Whoopee.