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Mary Harron director of The Notorious Bettie Page
By Daniel Robert Epstein
Apr 15, 2006
Mary Harron should be hailed as a goddess here on SuicideGirls. Just being the multi-talented director of I Shot Andy Warhol, American Psycho and multiple episodes of Six Feet Under would secure that status. But now she’s upped the ante by doing the biopic The Notorious Bettie Page which focuses on the Bettie’s rise from small town girl to 50’s pinup and bondage queen.
Check out the website for The Notorious Bettie Page
Daniel Robert Epstein: You have said that you were interested in the fact that Bettie Page was a religious person but that you’re not a really religious person yourself.
Mary Harron: I don’t have a personal sense of God or a belief in God but I think I have religious impulses and that yearning she had.
DRE:
I just interviewed Exene [Cervenka]. One thing that she said was that she doesn’t mind that woman are taking off their clothes for the camera but it bothers her that they’re famous for only taking off their clothes. That point is made in your film because the pinups hurt Bettie’s career, what’s your opinion on this?
MH:
I don’t know about that. If you’re transcendently good looking, I think that’s ok. For me it’s more about not harming them as a person. Movie stars are going to be famous for an image so I don’t think necessarily that’s destructive. With Bettie it is wrong that she was being blamed for the downfall of America.
DRE:
When I spoke with Lili [Taylor] I asked her about the connection between Valerie Solanis and Bettie Page because they both desperately wanted to be famous.
MH:
Yes, that’s a very strong connection. They were both looking for some sort of transcendence in celebrity. That somehow it would take them into another world or another place and transform them in some way. They are both disappointed by their dealings with celebrity.
DRE:
It seems like most people are.
MH:
Yeah. People think that celebrity will make the pain go away, like heaven.
DRE:
Once you have a lot of money and are famous you realize there are a lot of other problems that come along.
The scene in the beginning of the movie where the undercover agent busts the guy who sells him the bondage photos is very relevant. It was especially for me because I cover a lot comic books. There are cases going on, literally, right now where they send agents into comic book stores asking for the X-rated or adult material. Then they bust the guy on the spot
MH:
Oh really? I didn’t know that was happening now!
DRE:
There’s a thing called the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund which was created to fight those cases.
MH:
Is it somebody under age asking for it?
DRE:
Sometimes they send in people underage to try to buy the books. But oftentimes they don’t like the adult comics to be in plain sight. It has to be under the counter. Then of course it differs from state to state. Does it just boggle the mind that people do this?
MH:
Yeah it does. I got that idea from talking to this guy named Jay Gertzman who has written a lot about the history of Times Square and the history of the porn industry. He told me that those raids would happen. But I have to say I thought it was a thing of the past. I’m absolutely amazed that this happens today especially with comic books because I’m a big fan of graphic novels. It sounds so 1950’s.
DRE:
How was it working with Lili [Taylor] again?
MH:
It was great. It was wonderful and I wrote that part with her in mind. I thought it would be fun for her to do something lighter because the last one was so intense and dark. I knew that she had this great comic talent so I thought it would be fun to transform her into Paula.
DRE:
Do you do these kinds of films because you’re worried that people like Valerie and Bettie will fall into obscurity?
MH:
I think that was truer of Valerie because nobody was interested. When I started, there was absolutely nothing written about her. There was hardly anything about her available. This was before the internet so I had to go comb the periodical section in the library. But one thing I can say is that you can’t make a grand thesis about them. You can’t say “Oh, they exemplify their time in this way” because they both have such odd stories.
DRE:
It didn’t seem like Valerie, Bettie and the Klaws were trying to break down any barriers but that it was just signs of the time. They were all visionaries.
MH:
I guess what they have in common is that Bettie and Valerie both did their thing during periods of transition. With Bettie, it was the last era of va-va-voom 50’s sexuality. It’s a very sexy era while at the same time in movies no one is ever shown having sex and people have separate beds. No one ever talked about sex but everything’s very sexual and the world is about to be broken up by Playboy and everything that came about in the 60’s. Valerie was an early feminist at a time when no one was talking about feminism. Five years later everything will break open and someone like Valerie would have found a home. A lot of people would have been talking about the stuff she was talking about. So in some ways their free thinking was a little bit too early. At the same time Valerie saw herself as a visionary but I don’t think that Bettie did. I don’t think Bettie was prone to that kind of analysis at all.
DRE:
To go back to that beginning scene again I bet all those guys browsing around the porn shop were Republicans. Like Bill O’Reilly, I think they attack certain people because they’re afraid they’re going to reveal what’s in them. While other people embrace it because of what it reveals within them.
MH:
Even in regards to this movie, I’m interested in this stuff because it happened 50 years ago. I don’t see it as all that challenging but I was amused at what annoyed people about the film. I always feel that since there’s so much Puritanism in the culture, they wanted Bettie to be punished more. They wanted to see more of a story of somebody’s downfall. A young woman came up to me after one of the screenings in LA and said, “It’s so nice to see a pinup that doesn’t end up chopped up in pieces in a suitcase because every time you see one of those girls on Law & Order they end up dead in the closet.” There’s that weird puritan strain in the culture that since they’re strippers, they must die.
DRE:
There are so many women on SuicideGirls who have Bettie style. In your research were you amazed by how many people imitate her style?
MH:
Yeah, it’s bizarre. That’s the one thing that I was talking about with [co-writer] Guinevere [Turner] yesterday. Someone was interviewing us and talking about why Bettie is so popular. Guinevere said, “Well for one thing, it’s just very easy to imitate that hairstyle.” That and also the bondage because without that there’d be no huge cult of Bettie Page. If it was just leopards or just nude on the beach, I don’t know if it would be such a big cult and if it was just bondage I don’t think it would be as big.
DRE:
How do you think those bondage pictures affect people?
MH:
One of the big things in the Senate hearings is, what are the corrupting effects of an image? Their fear is that if a young person saw an image of bondage then that could create perversion in them. Whereas I think you have to have predilections but the predilections obviously can be fueled by seeing pictures, so I don’t know. The internet has obviously created a place where everyone is finding their niche. On the other hand, I’m a mother and there’s a theme of child pornography on the internet that I find very upsetting.
DRE:
I spoke to Legs McNeil last year and he doesn’t seem too happy about the screenplay for Please Kill Me. But of course, he doesn’t seem happy about much.
MH:
No, he’s such a grouch. He didn’t like it, yeah. He’s such a curmudgeon, but he’ll be happy when it comes out and it’s a huge success.
DRE:
You came up doing journalism for punk magazines and now your films appeal directly to that same crowd, how was it possible to keep that sensibility?
MH:
I don’t know but I’m sure it’ll run out soon [laughs]. There is not much of a counter culture but there are things that people will always be interested in music and art. I kept thinking of the people that I admire like David Lynch and David Cronenberg who still have a sophisticated take on things. I hope I will when I’m older.
DRE:
You mentioned directing Prison Break, which I love, but I’m surprised you want to do that show.
MH:
I watch the show but I haven’t got a job on it yet though I did go to interview for it. I like the idea of being able to do something that really has a lot of action. I also want to get away from my own sensibility and shoot in a different style with a lot of handheld cameras. It’s a very visceral show and the things I’ve done have been very cool and distant in some ways. The other thing I’d like to do is Battlestar Galactica. That’s a great and really interesting show. It’s done stuff with that genre that you have never seen done before. I want to have the experience of doing something completely different.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
Mary Harron should be hailed as a goddess here on SuicideGirls. Just being the multi-talented director of I Shot Andy Warhol, American Psycho and multiple episodes of Six Feet Under would secure that status. But now she’s upped the ante by doing the biopic The Notorious Bettie Page which focuses on the Bettie’s rise from small town girl to 50’s pinup and bondage queen.
Check out the website for The Notorious Bettie Page
Daniel Robert Epstein: You have said that you were interested in the fact that Bettie Page was a religious person but that you’re not a really religious person yourself.
Mary Harron: I don’t have a personal sense of God or a belief in God but I think I have religious impulses and that yearning she had.
DRE:
I just interviewed Exene [Cervenka]. One thing that she said was that she doesn’t mind that woman are taking off their clothes for the camera but it bothers her that they’re famous for only taking off their clothes. That point is made in your film because the pinups hurt Bettie’s career, what’s your opinion on this?
MH:
I don’t know about that. If you’re transcendently good looking, I think that’s ok. For me it’s more about not harming them as a person. Movie stars are going to be famous for an image so I don’t think necessarily that’s destructive. With Bettie it is wrong that she was being blamed for the downfall of America.
DRE:
When I spoke with Lili [Taylor] I asked her about the connection between Valerie Solanis and Bettie Page because they both desperately wanted to be famous.
MH:
Yes, that’s a very strong connection. They were both looking for some sort of transcendence in celebrity. That somehow it would take them into another world or another place and transform them in some way. They are both disappointed by their dealings with celebrity.
DRE:
It seems like most people are.
MH:
Yeah. People think that celebrity will make the pain go away, like heaven.
DRE:
Once you have a lot of money and are famous you realize there are a lot of other problems that come along.
The scene in the beginning of the movie where the undercover agent busts the guy who sells him the bondage photos is very relevant. It was especially for me because I cover a lot comic books. There are cases going on, literally, right now where they send agents into comic book stores asking for the X-rated or adult material. Then they bust the guy on the spot
The scene in the beginning of the movie where the undercover agent busts the guy who sells him the bondage photos is very relevant. It was especially for me because I cover a lot comic books. There are cases going on, literally, right now where they send agents into comic book stores asking for the X-rated or adult material. Then they bust the guy on the spot
MH:
Oh really? I didn’t know that was happening now!
DRE:
There’s a thing called the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund which was created to fight those cases.
MH:
Is it somebody under age asking for it?
DRE:
Sometimes they send in people underage to try to buy the books. But oftentimes they don’t like the adult comics to be in plain sight. It has to be under the counter. Then of course it differs from state to state. Does it just boggle the mind that people do this?
MH:
Yeah it does. I got that idea from talking to this guy named Jay Gertzman who has written a lot about the history of Times Square and the history of the porn industry. He told me that those raids would happen. But I have to say I thought it was a thing of the past. I’m absolutely amazed that this happens today especially with comic books because I’m a big fan of graphic novels. It sounds so 1950’s.
DRE:
How was it working with Lili [Taylor] again?
MH:
It was great. It was wonderful and I wrote that part with her in mind. I thought it would be fun for her to do something lighter because the last one was so intense and dark. I knew that she had this great comic talent so I thought it would be fun to transform her into Paula.
DRE:
Do you do these kinds of films because you’re worried that people like Valerie and Bettie will fall into obscurity?
MH:
I think that was truer of Valerie because nobody was interested. When I started, there was absolutely nothing written about her. There was hardly anything about her available. This was before the internet so I had to go comb the periodical section in the library. But one thing I can say is that you can’t make a grand thesis about them. You can’t say “Oh, they exemplify their time in this way” because they both have such odd stories.
DRE:
It didn’t seem like Valerie, Bettie and the Klaws were trying to break down any barriers but that it was just signs of the time. They were all visionaries.
MH:
I guess what they have in common is that Bettie and Valerie both did their thing during periods of transition. With Bettie, it was the last era of va-va-voom 50’s sexuality. It’s a very sexy era while at the same time in movies no one is ever shown having sex and people have separate beds. No one ever talked about sex but everything’s very sexual and the world is about to be broken up by Playboy and everything that came about in the 60’s. Valerie was an early feminist at a time when no one was talking about feminism. Five years later everything will break open and someone like Valerie would have found a home. A lot of people would have been talking about the stuff she was talking about. So in some ways their free thinking was a little bit too early. At the same time Valerie saw herself as a visionary but I don’t think that Bettie did. I don’t think Bettie was prone to that kind of analysis at all.
DRE:
To go back to that beginning scene again I bet all those guys browsing around the porn shop were Republicans. Like Bill O’Reilly, I think they attack certain people because they’re afraid they’re going to reveal what’s in them. While other people embrace it because of what it reveals within them.
MH:
Even in regards to this movie, I’m interested in this stuff because it happened 50 years ago. I don’t see it as all that challenging but I was amused at what annoyed people about the film. I always feel that since there’s so much Puritanism in the culture, they wanted Bettie to be punished more. They wanted to see more of a story of somebody’s downfall. A young woman came up to me after one of the screenings in LA and said, “It’s so nice to see a pinup that doesn’t end up chopped up in pieces in a suitcase because every time you see one of those girls on Law & Order they end up dead in the closet.” There’s that weird puritan strain in the culture that since they’re strippers, they must die.
DRE:
There are so many women on SuicideGirls who have Bettie style. In your research were you amazed by how many people imitate her style?
MH:
Yeah, it’s bizarre. That’s the one thing that I was talking about with [co-writer] Guinevere [Turner] yesterday. Someone was interviewing us and talking about why Bettie is so popular. Guinevere said, “Well for one thing, it’s just very easy to imitate that hairstyle.” That and also the bondage because without that there’d be no huge cult of Bettie Page. If it was just leopards or just nude on the beach, I don’t know if it would be such a big cult and if it was just bondage I don’t think it would be as big.
DRE:
How do you think those bondage pictures affect people?
MH:
One of the big things in the Senate hearings is, what are the corrupting effects of an image? Their fear is that if a young person saw an image of bondage then that could create perversion in them. Whereas I think you have to have predilections but the predilections obviously can be fueled by seeing pictures, so I don’t know. The internet has obviously created a place where everyone is finding their niche. On the other hand, I’m a mother and there’s a theme of child pornography on the internet that I find very upsetting.
DRE:
I spoke to Legs McNeil last year and he doesn’t seem too happy about the screenplay for Please Kill Me. But of course, he doesn’t seem happy about much.
MH:
No, he’s such a grouch. He didn’t like it, yeah. He’s such a curmudgeon, but he’ll be happy when it comes out and it’s a huge success.
DRE:
You came up doing journalism for punk magazines and now your films appeal directly to that same crowd, how was it possible to keep that sensibility?
MH:
I don’t know but I’m sure it’ll run out soon [laughs]. There is not much of a counter culture but there are things that people will always be interested in music and art. I kept thinking of the people that I admire like David Lynch and David Cronenberg who still have a sophisticated take on things. I hope I will when I’m older.
DRE:
You mentioned directing Prison Break, which I love, but I’m surprised you want to do that show.
MH:
I watch the show but I haven’t got a job on it yet though I did go to interview for it. I like the idea of being able to do something that really has a lot of action. I also want to get away from my own sensibility and shoot in a different style with a lot of handheld cameras. It’s a very visceral show and the things I’ve done have been very cool and distant in some ways. The other thing I’d like to do is Battlestar Galactica. That’s a great and really interesting show. It’s done stuff with that genre that you have never seen done before. I want to have the experience of doing something completely different.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
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