IPOD
RADIO
Control: An Interview With Producer Orian Williams
By Erin Broadley
Sep 28, 2007
Before dawn on Sunday May 18, 1980 a 23-year-old Ian Curtis was found dead in his kitchen, having hung himself with a clothesline. His death signaled the end of Joy Division, the post-punk pioneers who later reformed as New Order, and in a way, signaled the end of poetic innocence in the burgeoning Manchester music scene. His wife, Deborah, had his lyrics “Love Will Tear Us Apart” inscribed on his memorial. Anton Corbijn’s CONTROL is their story. It’s a love story wrought by working class life in Macclesfield, England, plagued by depression, infidelity and Ian’s long-suffered struggle with epilepsy, but it’s a love story none-the-less.
Having just toured the festival circuit, CONTROL is making its West Coast debut on September 30th at the Swerve Festival, a new annual celebration of music, art and film that begins September 28th in Los Angeles.
SuicideGirls caught up with producer Orian Williams to chat about the challenges he faced creating this portrait of a much discussed yet little understood artist.
Erin Broadley: The Joy Division story is obviously very personal to Anton Corbijn, but what was your personal experience with the band?
Orian Williams: Definitely the movie is personal for Anton, and pretty much for everyone involved. But for me, I was the first one on the project. Ten years ago it was 1997 and I bought Deborah Curtis’s book Touching From a Distance, which is based on the life of Ian Curtis. I read it and thought, “Wow, this would make a great film one day.” I gave it to a couple friends who were producers and that led to having it sort of “out of sight, out of mind.” I was focused more on this other movie I was doing, the first film I produced, which was Shadow of the Vampire.
EB:
Yeah, I saw that.
OW:
Did you? Oh good. So [Deborah’s] book was handed back to me a few years later from the producer I gave it to, however he hadn’t read it so I just sort of stuck it back on my shelf. Around that time I had randomly emailed Anton on my own asking him if he’d be interested in directing a film.
EB:
Right. I read that initially he wasn’t interested in having his first film be music related, let alone be about Ian Curtis. How did you work your magic? [Laughs]
OW:
[Laughs] That’s right. Well, it was sort of just going with your gut and your heart and sending good vibes to Anton but in the end I think he just made a decision on his own. I think he came to the understanding that this film wasn’t a biopic, it wasn’t about a band or a musician or a rock star or anything like that.
EB:
Yeah, that it was more about a love story and a portrait of a person.
OW:
Exactly. And I think that steered him back in the direction of wanting to direct it. He moved to London from Holland to follow his favorite band and that was Joy Division. So all that meant something to me, for sure. For me, having grown up loving alternative music, specifically Joy Division and New Order and all these bands from that time period and from that area of the world, there was something cool about it, you know? There had to be something interesting about this subject, this music, that guy and the aesthetic that Joy Division brings to the table. So that was something in my heart forever. And I’ve always been a huge Anton fan…
EB:
I have a quote here where you say, “Control is the accumulation of all my loves – photography, cinema, literature, music.”
OW:
That’s very true. Exactly. This project means so much for all those reasons. I’m really excited about it. It’s not about a band like, “Hey, we got our first recording and we’re on stage.” It actually moves through that kind of stuff rather quickly and how [Joy Division] forms and how they [rise]. I’m not a musician but I think what musicians are most inspired by is emotion and experience. You get a lot of that in this film because you learn what motivates Ian to either write a song or to follow through with a thought or an idea and where it all comes from. If you’re an artist it’s a living emotion, really. It’s a physical emotion. You’re translating your thoughts and your feelings into something tangible and expressive and hopefully that song or that painting or that photograph conveys that emotion. I think music does that more than most because sometimes you can’t really explain an emotion you’re feeling but you put on a song and people get it.
EB:
Well, what were or are some of the most misunderstood aspects about the way the public perceives Ian?
OW:
What’s amazing about that is there’s been so many misconceptions that no one really knows the truth about what happened that night, in that room, with him alone. A lot of it is people taking self-blame or feeling like, “I could have been there. I could have helped.” In this movie we’re not forensic CSI types, we’re not trying to completely explain what happened that night. I think a lot of people have their own ideas about who Ian was and the story of Joy Division because there’s such limited amounts of information that exists, whether it be footage or photos or interviews. I mean, I’ve only ever heard one interview with Ian Curtis where I heard his voice. Truly, there’s not a lot that exists so people can only go on the music and the few photographs, which are all in their own way very special. I think there are misconceptions and I don’t think you’ll ever really know if you weren’t there. And even if you were there, you’ll have only an aspect of the story and that’s what we tried to do. Because you’ve got Tony Wilson, you’ve got Deborah Curtis and her ideas and a certain side of the story -- because of course she was there and lived with him -- and you’ve got other parts that she wasn’t there for. Natalie Curtis has her own ideas about her father and that world, and of course Anton’s job was to bring all these collective ideas and stories together. And Matt Greenhalgh’s script – I met Matt through an actor friend of mine and he knew Matt had moved to Manchester. I was looking for someone in Manchester to really write the best script possible and he was from that world and that region, that place, and was able to add a feeling to the script that was quite unique and that was quite foreign to a lot of people. I think we tried our best and Sam Riley channels him in such a way…I think all these elements add to our own interpretation of who Ian was. It still will never be correct but …
EB:
I have something here by a writer named Matt Bochenski where he says about Ian, “his death became a platform from which Manchester staked it’s claim not just to greatness, but to genius.”
OW:
Yeah, of course, and I think a lot of it was that he broke the mold of living a normal life working the steel mills or the sort of normal job. He got out of that.
EB:
He set a precedent.
OW:
Completely. He was searching and he found something quite unique and that was this sound, this combination of electronic and post-punk and rock. He was a poet and quite incredible and, of course, never having made it to the US made it feel like [the band] was even more special.
EB:
Right. Like no one outside of that world really got to live and breathe it and sweat it like those in and around Manchester did.
OW:
That’s right, yeah. I think that’s a pretty cool element. For me, I never saw Joy Division. I did see New Order many, many times. But I didn’t come out of the film thinking, “Well, we got that or we nailed it or we got that wrong.” I think we just made our movie the best we could. Tony Wilson really brought a lot to it because he was there for so much of everything and, God bless him, he never actually saw the film.
EB:
I know, I think all our hearts broke when he died. What tragic timing…
OW:
We set up screenings for him but he could never make it because either he was too sick or he just couldn’t get away. But he came out to Los Angeles and he we had his blessing on so many levels. He was really happy about Matt and happy about Anton on so many levels. I think when Anton came on board the movie really took on a life of its own. Anton also put more money into the film than anyone. I think he believed in it so much too. And he was there. He wasn’t best friends with those guys, he was just sort of a witness to a small picture of Joy Division.
EB:
This film seems to focus more on Ian as a person, and not so much as a legend. Like you guys wanted to show him as very real and very emotional.
OW:
That’s right. One thing Debbie Curtis told me on set that really sunk in was, she looked at me and said, “You know, if Ian were alive and he knew that there was a movie with a David Bowie song in it about him and his life, he probably would lose it. He couldn’t conceive of that happening. He worshiped David Bowie. And to have three David Bowie songs in a movie that deals with Ian Curtis, it would just be so beyond his understanding of anything because he loved movies, he loved cinema, and he loved David Bowie. He loved other musicians of course but he would have been quite humbled by the whole thing.” This coming from her, you know.
EB:
That’s amazing
OW:
I know. And I think that really says it. This movie is something we’ve been working on for so long, you know, every day on this set is a struggle. It was hard, you stop, you start, you’re tired, things happen, but then people start reacting to it on a different level -- in a way that you can’t really explain. It’s a wonderful thing to have people tell you that what you’ve worked on for so long is really special.
EB:
Well, one thing Tony Wilson was quoted on in regards to this film was, “all music films invariably are shite.” What were some of the challenges you ran into as producer, making sure this wasn’t another shit music film?
OW:
[Laughs] It was a struggle the whole way through. We had a first time director, which for me never mattered. It was Anton and it was cool. And I felt like, if we made a movie that we’re all happy with and we all love and we make our own money back that we put in or make investors money back that they put into it, then we’re happy. It was early on decided by Anton that it was to be black and white. And that adds another element of difficulty. But these reasons were always in my mind the reason the movie would get made or the reason that people would go to see it because it was unique, because it was different, because it wasn’t your typical biopic or your typical music film about a musician with a beginning, middle and an end. There is that in this film but it’s done in such an authentic way that it feels very real and it’s kind of rough and it adds to the sort of nostalgic atmosphere that’s created there. There was a lot of pressure but [everyone] was kind of intrigued by the fact that this movie was so special, they wanted, as I wanted, for Anton to make the movie he wanted. And by bringing in an unknown actor, Sam Riley, I think by having the music rights which was a huge important thing early on, that gave us the [confidence] that at least we’re going to get this movie made. Because at first there were competing projects, which there always is when there’s a specific story about a certain individual. There’s always someone out there trying to make a movie about the same subject. And this one is quite special to a lot of people.
EB:
Yeah, I think the real key to this film was the players involved and also your commitment to making this project over 10 years with respect to all those involved. And earning that trust from the people whose lives it was about.
OW:
That’s exactly right. Tony Wilson and I were in Los Angeles, having lunch at the Chateau Marmont, and he just looked at me and said, “You’ve got the perfect writer, Orian. You have the perfect director, you’re an American and I have no idea how you picked these people [laughs] but you did the right thing and this film is going to be great.” That coming from him…
EB:
That’s a great compliment.
OW:
It was great. And New Order felt the same way. And Debbie Curtis, same thing. I wanted everyone’s trust. For this film, there were a lot of various individuals who were still alive that we had to cater to.
EB:
Yeah, and those people who are still here are going to be the first ones to call bullshit, you know? But then there’s also the whole thing that this is a film, it’s an art piece, and creative compromises and liberties are bound to be taken for the sake of the project. You know, that’s what a film does. It’s important to keep the story’s integrity intact and the heart of the project intact but [laughs] it’s not a documentary.
OW:
I know! You’re trying to put an entire life into and hour and a half or two hours and how you do that is with dialog, images, music or atmosphere. It’s a combination of all those elements in there. And there’s some parts missing and not accurate. We started with Debbie’s book and that was it. There’s so much to be told through other individuals that were around at that time. It’s really a movie about Ian Curtis and that’s where it starts and that’s where it ends. We weren’t out there to tell everyone’s story. But we know that we put everything into every scene and every moment. There’s a lot of realistic things in the film, like where we shot outside of Ian’s house, that’s really Ian’s house. That’s where he lived. We shot in the streets around where he lived and various other specific things. Like the music, the band recorded the music or John Cooper Clark who’s actually in the film. He played himself.
EB:
Well, and despite tiny little things that may not be accurate word for word, a lot of this story is about the overall feeling you’re left with at the end of the story. I’ve seen plenty of films where the writer or director or producer made sure every detail was perfectly accurate and the film ended up being completely devoid of emotion.
OW:
Terrible, yeah. Exactly. You just try your best. That’s all you can do. I’m happy with the way it turned out.
EB:
I read that while filming, the actors who played the musicians in Joy Division took the roles a bit too far, living it up as rock stars, and that you told them to watch themselves. Is there any truth to that?
OW:
Oh, well my feeling is that they became a band before they became a troupe of actors playing musicians in the movie. They acted as if they were a new band. We never told them to watch it. I mean they were always sort of doing their own thing but they had a time to be on set and we picked them up. They’re young and they were definitely, uh, [laughs] learning a lot. But there was never anything specific like, watch it. With Sam it’s quite funny, I remember him saying that. But there were definitely some moments where we had to be “okay, you’re really taking this far” but it wasn’t like we had to stop him. We didn’t alter the way they were thinking, they learned it on their own. By the end they were quite tight. They probably got carried away I think in their own way. It was a pretty wild time. They never slept and they were so focused and excited about the project.
EB:
What’s next for you?
OW:
I’m producing this film called The Boom Boom Room starring Dita Von Teese and Willie Nelson. He’s great. It follows this girl who’s sort of your every girl growing up in Calabasas and sort of finds her way into this small desert town and this washed up, dirty saloon…its sort of a fairy tale. Dita’s character goes from a simple girl into the world of burlesque, though she is playing another character and not herself. It’s amazing.
For more information and screening locations go to the official film website http://momentum.control.substance001.com/
For more information on the Swerve Festival go to www.swervefest.com
Before dawn on Sunday May 18, 1980 a 23-year-old Ian Curtis was found dead in his kitchen, having hung himself with a clothesline. His death signaled the end of Joy Division, the post-punk pioneers who later reformed as New Order, and in a way, signaled the end of poetic innocence in the burgeoning Manchester music scene. His wife, Deborah, had his lyrics “Love Will Tear Us Apart” inscribed on his memorial. Anton Corbijn’s CONTROL is their story. It’s a love story wrought by working class life in Macclesfield, England, plagued by depression, infidelity and Ian’s long-suffered struggle with epilepsy, but it’s a love story none-the-less.
Having just toured the festival circuit, CONTROL is making its West Coast debut on September 30th at the Swerve Festival, a new annual celebration of music, art and film that begins September 28th in Los Angeles.
SuicideGirls caught up with producer Orian Williams to chat about the challenges he faced creating this portrait of a much discussed yet little understood artist.
Erin Broadley: The Joy Division story is obviously very personal to Anton Corbijn, but what was your personal experience with the band?
Orian Williams: Definitely the movie is personal for Anton, and pretty much for everyone involved. But for me, I was the first one on the project. Ten years ago it was 1997 and I bought Deborah Curtis’s book Touching From a Distance, which is based on the life of Ian Curtis. I read it and thought, “Wow, this would make a great film one day.” I gave it to a couple friends who were producers and that led to having it sort of “out of sight, out of mind.” I was focused more on this other movie I was doing, the first film I produced, which was Shadow of the Vampire.
EB:
Yeah, I saw that.
OW:
Did you? Oh good. So [Deborah’s] book was handed back to me a few years later from the producer I gave it to, however he hadn’t read it so I just sort of stuck it back on my shelf. Around that time I had randomly emailed Anton on my own asking him if he’d be interested in directing a film.
EB:
Right. I read that initially he wasn’t interested in having his first film be music related, let alone be about Ian Curtis. How did you work your magic? [Laughs]
OW:
[Laughs] That’s right. Well, it was sort of just going with your gut and your heart and sending good vibes to Anton but in the end I think he just made a decision on his own. I think he came to the understanding that this film wasn’t a biopic, it wasn’t about a band or a musician or a rock star or anything like that.
EB:
Yeah, that it was more about a love story and a portrait of a person.
OW:
Exactly. And I think that steered him back in the direction of wanting to direct it. He moved to London from Holland to follow his favorite band and that was Joy Division. So all that meant something to me, for sure. For me, having grown up loving alternative music, specifically Joy Division and New Order and all these bands from that time period and from that area of the world, there was something cool about it, you know? There had to be something interesting about this subject, this music, that guy and the aesthetic that Joy Division brings to the table. So that was something in my heart forever. And I’ve always been a huge Anton fan…
EB:
I have a quote here where you say, “Control is the accumulation of all my loves – photography, cinema, literature, music.”
OW:
That’s very true. Exactly. This project means so much for all those reasons. I’m really excited about it. It’s not about a band like, “Hey, we got our first recording and we’re on stage.” It actually moves through that kind of stuff rather quickly and how [Joy Division] forms and how they [rise]. I’m not a musician but I think what musicians are most inspired by is emotion and experience. You get a lot of that in this film because you learn what motivates Ian to either write a song or to follow through with a thought or an idea and where it all comes from. If you’re an artist it’s a living emotion, really. It’s a physical emotion. You’re translating your thoughts and your feelings into something tangible and expressive and hopefully that song or that painting or that photograph conveys that emotion. I think music does that more than most because sometimes you can’t really explain an emotion you’re feeling but you put on a song and people get it.
EB:
Well, what were or are some of the most misunderstood aspects about the way the public perceives Ian?
OW:
What’s amazing about that is there’s been so many misconceptions that no one really knows the truth about what happened that night, in that room, with him alone. A lot of it is people taking self-blame or feeling like, “I could have been there. I could have helped.” In this movie we’re not forensic CSI types, we’re not trying to completely explain what happened that night. I think a lot of people have their own ideas about who Ian was and the story of Joy Division because there’s such limited amounts of information that exists, whether it be footage or photos or interviews. I mean, I’ve only ever heard one interview with Ian Curtis where I heard his voice. Truly, there’s not a lot that exists so people can only go on the music and the few photographs, which are all in their own way very special. I think there are misconceptions and I don’t think you’ll ever really know if you weren’t there. And even if you were there, you’ll have only an aspect of the story and that’s what we tried to do. Because you’ve got Tony Wilson, you’ve got Deborah Curtis and her ideas and a certain side of the story -- because of course she was there and lived with him -- and you’ve got other parts that she wasn’t there for. Natalie Curtis has her own ideas about her father and that world, and of course Anton’s job was to bring all these collective ideas and stories together. And Matt Greenhalgh’s script – I met Matt through an actor friend of mine and he knew Matt had moved to Manchester. I was looking for someone in Manchester to really write the best script possible and he was from that world and that region, that place, and was able to add a feeling to the script that was quite unique and that was quite foreign to a lot of people. I think we tried our best and Sam Riley channels him in such a way…I think all these elements add to our own interpretation of who Ian was. It still will never be correct but …
EB:
I have something here by a writer named Matt Bochenski where he says about Ian, “his death became a platform from which Manchester staked it’s claim not just to greatness, but to genius.”
OW:
Yeah, of course, and I think a lot of it was that he broke the mold of living a normal life working the steel mills or the sort of normal job. He got out of that.
EB:
He set a precedent.
OW:
Completely. He was searching and he found something quite unique and that was this sound, this combination of electronic and post-punk and rock. He was a poet and quite incredible and, of course, never having made it to the US made it feel like [the band] was even more special.
EB:
Right. Like no one outside of that world really got to live and breathe it and sweat it like those in and around Manchester did.
OW:
That’s right, yeah. I think that’s a pretty cool element. For me, I never saw Joy Division. I did see New Order many, many times. But I didn’t come out of the film thinking, “Well, we got that or we nailed it or we got that wrong.” I think we just made our movie the best we could. Tony Wilson really brought a lot to it because he was there for so much of everything and, God bless him, he never actually saw the film.
EB:
I know, I think all our hearts broke when he died. What tragic timing…
OW:
We set up screenings for him but he could never make it because either he was too sick or he just couldn’t get away. But he came out to Los Angeles and he we had his blessing on so many levels. He was really happy about Matt and happy about Anton on so many levels. I think when Anton came on board the movie really took on a life of its own. Anton also put more money into the film than anyone. I think he believed in it so much too. And he was there. He wasn’t best friends with those guys, he was just sort of a witness to a small picture of Joy Division.
EB:
This film seems to focus more on Ian as a person, and not so much as a legend. Like you guys wanted to show him as very real and very emotional.
OW:
That’s right. One thing Debbie Curtis told me on set that really sunk in was, she looked at me and said, “You know, if Ian were alive and he knew that there was a movie with a David Bowie song in it about him and his life, he probably would lose it. He couldn’t conceive of that happening. He worshiped David Bowie. And to have three David Bowie songs in a movie that deals with Ian Curtis, it would just be so beyond his understanding of anything because he loved movies, he loved cinema, and he loved David Bowie. He loved other musicians of course but he would have been quite humbled by the whole thing.” This coming from her, you know.
EB:
That’s amazing
OW:
I know. And I think that really says it. This movie is something we’ve been working on for so long, you know, every day on this set is a struggle. It was hard, you stop, you start, you’re tired, things happen, but then people start reacting to it on a different level -- in a way that you can’t really explain. It’s a wonderful thing to have people tell you that what you’ve worked on for so long is really special.
EB:
Well, one thing Tony Wilson was quoted on in regards to this film was, “all music films invariably are shite.” What were some of the challenges you ran into as producer, making sure this wasn’t another shit music film?
OW:
[Laughs] It was a struggle the whole way through. We had a first time director, which for me never mattered. It was Anton and it was cool. And I felt like, if we made a movie that we’re all happy with and we all love and we make our own money back that we put in or make investors money back that they put into it, then we’re happy. It was early on decided by Anton that it was to be black and white. And that adds another element of difficulty. But these reasons were always in my mind the reason the movie would get made or the reason that people would go to see it because it was unique, because it was different, because it wasn’t your typical biopic or your typical music film about a musician with a beginning, middle and an end. There is that in this film but it’s done in such an authentic way that it feels very real and it’s kind of rough and it adds to the sort of nostalgic atmosphere that’s created there. There was a lot of pressure but [everyone] was kind of intrigued by the fact that this movie was so special, they wanted, as I wanted, for Anton to make the movie he wanted. And by bringing in an unknown actor, Sam Riley, I think by having the music rights which was a huge important thing early on, that gave us the [confidence] that at least we’re going to get this movie made. Because at first there were competing projects, which there always is when there’s a specific story about a certain individual. There’s always someone out there trying to make a movie about the same subject. And this one is quite special to a lot of people.
EB:
Yeah, I think the real key to this film was the players involved and also your commitment to making this project over 10 years with respect to all those involved. And earning that trust from the people whose lives it was about.
OW:
That’s exactly right. Tony Wilson and I were in Los Angeles, having lunch at the Chateau Marmont, and he just looked at me and said, “You’ve got the perfect writer, Orian. You have the perfect director, you’re an American and I have no idea how you picked these people [laughs] but you did the right thing and this film is going to be great.” That coming from him…
EB:
That’s a great compliment.
OW:
It was great. And New Order felt the same way. And Debbie Curtis, same thing. I wanted everyone’s trust. For this film, there were a lot of various individuals who were still alive that we had to cater to.
EB:
Yeah, and those people who are still here are going to be the first ones to call bullshit, you know? But then there’s also the whole thing that this is a film, it’s an art piece, and creative compromises and liberties are bound to be taken for the sake of the project. You know, that’s what a film does. It’s important to keep the story’s integrity intact and the heart of the project intact but [laughs] it’s not a documentary.
OW:
I know! You’re trying to put an entire life into and hour and a half or two hours and how you do that is with dialog, images, music or atmosphere. It’s a combination of all those elements in there. And there’s some parts missing and not accurate. We started with Debbie’s book and that was it. There’s so much to be told through other individuals that were around at that time. It’s really a movie about Ian Curtis and that’s where it starts and that’s where it ends. We weren’t out there to tell everyone’s story. But we know that we put everything into every scene and every moment. There’s a lot of realistic things in the film, like where we shot outside of Ian’s house, that’s really Ian’s house. That’s where he lived. We shot in the streets around where he lived and various other specific things. Like the music, the band recorded the music or John Cooper Clark who’s actually in the film. He played himself.
EB:
Well, and despite tiny little things that may not be accurate word for word, a lot of this story is about the overall feeling you’re left with at the end of the story. I’ve seen plenty of films where the writer or director or producer made sure every detail was perfectly accurate and the film ended up being completely devoid of emotion.
OW:
Terrible, yeah. Exactly. You just try your best. That’s all you can do. I’m happy with the way it turned out.
EB:
I read that while filming, the actors who played the musicians in Joy Division took the roles a bit too far, living it up as rock stars, and that you told them to watch themselves. Is there any truth to that?
OW:
Oh, well my feeling is that they became a band before they became a troupe of actors playing musicians in the movie. They acted as if they were a new band. We never told them to watch it. I mean they were always sort of doing their own thing but they had a time to be on set and we picked them up. They’re young and they were definitely, uh, [laughs] learning a lot. But there was never anything specific like, watch it. With Sam it’s quite funny, I remember him saying that. But there were definitely some moments where we had to be “okay, you’re really taking this far” but it wasn’t like we had to stop him. We didn’t alter the way they were thinking, they learned it on their own. By the end they were quite tight. They probably got carried away I think in their own way. It was a pretty wild time. They never slept and they were so focused and excited about the project.
EB:
What’s next for you?
OW:
I’m producing this film called The Boom Boom Room starring Dita Von Teese and Willie Nelson. He’s great. It follows this girl who’s sort of your every girl growing up in Calabasas and sort of finds her way into this small desert town and this washed up, dirty saloon…its sort of a fairy tale. Dita’s character goes from a simple girl into the world of burlesque, though she is playing another character and not herself. It’s amazing.
For more information and screening locations go to the official film website http://momentum.control.substance001.com/
For more information on the Swerve Festival go to www.swervefest.com
For more information and screening locations go to the official film website http://momentum.control.substance001.com/
For more information on the Swerve Festival go to www.swervefest.com
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